2. WK Kriegsfilm
- Ersteller ghostadmin
- Erstellt am
GooZe
Captain Special
Full ACK.
Obwohl dieses Thema eigentlich einen eigenen Thread verdient hätte - wohlgemerkt einen objektiven, emotionslosen und sachlich geführten Thread.
Leider ist das bei diesem Thema nicht möglich.
GooZe
hab gerade ne werbung von timelife zu einer Doku-serie von denen gesehen.....kompletter 2.WW von 1939-45.....is eine zusammenstellung aus den besten Dokus zum Thema (angeblich)....kostenfaktor und tele-nr hab ich aber vergessen 
ghostadmin
Grand Admiral Special
ja da bin ich etwas vorsichtig, da hat man ruckzuck ein Abo am Hals oder so
ich werde mir erstmal den Jahrhundertkrieg "antun", natürlich nicht physisch
habe jetzt schon ziemlich viele Filme zu dem Thema gesehen u.a. Brücke v. Remagen, U571, Das Boot (lange Fassung), Stalag17, Gesprengte Ketten, Sound of War, Ardennen 1944, Brücke von Arnheim, Schindlers Liste, Band of Brothers, Stalingrad, Private Ryan, Kampfgeschwader 633 usw.
ich werde mir erstmal den Jahrhundertkrieg "antun", natürlich nicht physisch
habe jetzt schon ziemlich viele Filme zu dem Thema gesehen u.a. Brücke v. Remagen, U571, Das Boot (lange Fassung), Stalag17, Gesprengte Ketten, Sound of War, Ardennen 1944, Brücke von Arnheim, Schindlers Liste, Band of Brothers, Stalingrad, Private Ryan, Kampfgeschwader 633 usw.
GooZe
Captain Special
Original geschrieben von ghostadmin
ja da bin ich etwas vorsichtig, da hat man ruckzuck ein Abo am Hals oder so
ich werde mir erstmal den Jahrhundertkrieg "antun", natürlich nicht physisch
habe jetzt schon ziemlich viele Filme zu dem Thema gesehen u.a. Brücke v. Remagen, U571, Das Boot (lange Fassung), Stalag17, Gesprengte Ketten, Sound of War, Ardennen 1944, Brücke von Arnheim, Schindlers Liste, Band of Brothers, Stalingrad, Private Ryan, Kampfgeschwader 633 usw.
Und? Was ist so Deine Meinung zu diesen Filmen?
Bis auf "Sound of War" habe ich diese Filme auch alle gesehen. Geht es Dir mehr um die Kampfszenen oder mehr um Eindrücke dieser Zeit?
GooZe
wenn du eine wirklich gute reportage, die nicht ala guido "ich bin der super grösste und beste historiker aller zeiten" knopp ist, dann kauf die "the world at war" von jeremy isacs (oder so änlich. ich finde die episoden noch am besten, obwohl ich ziemlich kritisch bin, wenn es um historische korrektness/fairness geht. diese serie ist eigentlich ganz neutral und erklärt zum beispiel nur den deutschen ostfeldzug vom militärischem aspekt ohne holocaust, welcher in einer anderen episode gezeigt wird!
hier ist die episoden liste:
[EPISODE 1] THE MAKING OF WORLD AT WAR (This is only available on DVD)
The story behind the creation of one of the World's most respected documentaries. Jeremy Isaacs talks about the production process and the aims of the project. This programme provides an insight into the challenges of summarising years of history, tragedy and personal struggle in a comprehensive, coherent and non-partial manner. With over three million feet of archive footage alone the task was almost impossible.
[EPSIODE 2] A NEW GERMANY - 1933 - 39:
The story of the Second World War began in the early 1930s, showing how Adolf Hitler came to power with the whole-hearted support of millions of ordinary Germans. Newsreels of the day and home movies taken by Hitler's mistress Eva Braun, show the Fuhrer as he must have appeared to his people. Historical hindsight and the knowledge of what some of the Nazi hierarchy were already doing under the cover of clever propaganda gives these shots a very sinister aspect. Written by: Neal Ascherson - Directed by : Hugh Raggett
[EPISODE 3] DISTANT WAR - 1939-40:
For months after Chamberlain's declaration of war, Britain's only casualties were on the streets during the blackout. Churchill was elected as Prime Minister. Britain wasn't prepared for war or taking the possibility seriously. As First Lord of the Admiralty, Churchill displays his grasp of propaganda by making the most of the Graf Spee sinking after the battle of the River Plate. The reality was that the ship was scuttled and its crew were marched through London in celebration. Meanwhile, in Europe, the Nazi terror continued, and Britain waited with trepidation. Written by: Laurence Thompson - Produced and Directed by: David Elstein
[EPISODE 4] FRANCE FALLS - MAY-JUNE 1940:
The German's defeat of the French was total. France had the largest pre-war army, but were humiliated due to a continued reliance on First World War techniques and equipment. Enormous emphasis was placed on the heavily fortified Maginot Line, a chain of fortresses built to contain the fiercest attacks and supplied by an underground communications system. Incredibly, the Line does not extend to the Channel in the west, so the Germans simply skirt the Line, leading to a defeat of the French in six weeks. Written & Produced by: Peter Batty
[EPISODE 5] ALONE IN BRITAIN - MAY 1940-JUNE 1941:
With France fallen, the USA as yet uninvolved, and the Russian pact with Hitler still in force, Britain was alone. Although many were saved by the Dunkirk 'victory', British morale was never lower. The Battle of Britain began and the Luftwaffe redirected its bombing from the airfields to the cities. Churchill's 'bulldog' attitude - 'we shall never surrender' - was thrown back at him by some London Eastenders who suffered the worst. Then Hitler turned against Russia and the pressure, thankfully, was relieved. Written by : Laurence Thompson Produced & Directed by : David Elstein
[EPISODE 6] BARBAROSSA - JUNE-DECEMBER 1941:
Hitler turns his troops towards Russia when the pact between Germany and the Soviet Union outlived its usefulness. The early stages of the invasion consisted of overwhelming German victories. The defenders were happy to trade space for time. But the German High Command delayed and the advance was held a few miles from Moscow when the mud and the fierce cold of the Russian winter took hold. The ill-equipped Germans were routed - thousands were killed, wounded or captured. Hitler's ambitious plans crumbled. Written & Produced by: Peter Batty
[EPISODE 7] BANZAI - JAPAN STRIKES:
In the East, the Japanese had been at war on the Chinese mainland since 1931. December 7th 1941 saw the attack on Pearl Harbour and the start of an all-conquering sweep throughout South East Asia, culminating in the taking of Singapore. 'Banzai' includes interviews with several Japanese involved in this part of the war - Emperor Hirohito's Lord Provy Seal, the planner and the lead pilot of the Pearl Harbour attack speaks, as well as several US seamen. Written & Produced by: Peter Batty
[EPISODE 8] ON OUR WAY - AMERICA ENTERS THE WAR:
Neutral America was divided as war started, but after France fell, support for the British grew. She sold - then gave - guns, ammunition and food to the British, without entering the fighting arena. After Pearl Harbour, America found herself at war with Japan - but no with Germany. The conflicts in the Pacific and in Europe were two separate wars. President Roosevelt was committed to fight against Hitler - congress was not. Hitler's declaration of war solved Roosevelt's quandary, a year later an American armada steamed towards Europe. Written & Produced by : Peter Batty
[EPISODE 9] DESERT - THE WAR IN NORTH AFRICA:
The war in North Africa took nearly three years to resolve, fought and refought over the same 600 miles of desert between Alexandria and Benghazi. At last, Montgomery's celebrated 'Desert Rats' beat Rommel's Afrika Korps at the famous battle of El Alamein. The surviving combatants tell the story of the other war against sandstorms, heat, flies, thirst and dysentery, and Field Marshal Lord Harding, General Sir Richard O'Connor, Sir Francis de Guingand and Siegfried Westphal are among those describing the top-level decision-making of the North Africa campaign. Written & Produced by: Peter Batty
[EPISODE 10] STALINGRAD:
The encirclement and defeat of the German Army at Stalingrad held more importance than the horrifying number of men lost. For the first time, the Germans were beaten in the field and the legend of German mastery on land was dispelled. For Hitler, Stalingrad became a magnet, an obsession, with half a million men fighting for six months around it and inside it. So important was Stalingrad to both sides that neither dared give it up. Hitler was finally beaten by the very people he once termed as 'sub-human'. Written by: Jerome Kuehl - Directed by : Hugh Raggett
[EPISODE 11] WOLFPACK:
German attempts to starve Britain by attacking ships bringing supplies from North America were very nearly successful. The Allied ships, despite convoy techniques, navy escorts and elementary underwater detection devices, were very vulnerable. Doenitz developed the technique of co-ordinating his submarine forces into 'wolf-packs' to attack ships from above and below the surface - but liaison was not a British strong point; co-operation between the Navy and the Air Force in the field, as well as at sea, was very bad. Written by: J P W Mallalieu - Produced by : Ted Childs
[EPISODE 12] REDSTAR - THE SOVIET UNION 1941-43:
In Leningrad, a city of three million inhabitants, 200,000 people were killed by German shells and further 630,000 died from cold or starvation. Russia's terrible total of war losses was 20,000,000 military and civilian. Yet Leningrad survived, and the Russian armies went on to rout the Germans. Three months before the attack on Russia began, Hitler told his generals that this was to be a war of destruction - there could be no question of soldierly comradeship with the Russians; they were, to his mind, 'sub-humans'. Written by: Neal Ascherson - Produced & Directed
[EPISODE 13] WHIRLWIND - BOMBING GERMANY - SEPTEMBER 1939-APRIL 1944:
The arrival of Arthur 'Bomber' Harris to take charge of Bomber Command heralded a new attitude. He was in favour of revenge on a massive scale. He accepted the target statistics and started a system of night 'area' bombing as an alternative to individual target raids which previously had proved disastrous for the British. In July 1943 at Hamburg, at least 30,000 people died, many of them killed by the heat which, in places, reached an estimated 1000ºC. German civilian morale, for the first time, was shattered. Written by: Charles Douglas Home - Produced by: Ted Childs
[EPISODE 14] TOUGH OLD GUT:
Churchill persuaded the Americans to join the Allies on the road to Rome and in November 1942, eleven months after Pearl Harbour, they met the Wehrmacht for the first time. In Tunisia they suffered their worst defeat but the Afrika Korps' eventual defeat gave a major boost to British Mediterranean strategy. Two months later, Allied troops landed in Sicily, Mussolini was deposed and the victory revived the British. Progress northwards through Italy was difficult and hampered by the onset of the Italian winter, however, gradually the Allied position improved. Written by David Wheeler - Produced by : Ben Shepherd
[EPISODE 15] IT'S A LOVELY DAY TOMORROW:
The jungle and monsoon conditions, for five months of every year, made the lot of the Burma Army a nightmare, whilst the Japanese were able to thrive. The Burma Army in 1942 was weakened by alien conditions, hampered by poor communications, terrorised by Japanese air superiority. It suffered the longest retreat in British Military history, with many casualties and thousands captured by the Japanese. Mountbatten's arrival as commander of S.E. Asia in 1943 was a turning point where the 'supermen' myth was exploded by the first Japanese defeat at Arrakan. Written by: John Williams - Produced and Directed by John Pett
[EPISODE 16] HOME FIRES:
Following defeat in the Battle of Britain, the Luftwaffe focus was no longer on London but on more provincial cities. U-boat operations in the Atlantic meant that food supplies were not coming through. Women were conscripted for the first time and called to work in the fields and factories. Rationing brought black marketers in its wake. The strain of the war effort resulted in strikes and the American presence caused social problems. Rejoicing at their departure for Normandy was quickly eclipsed by the advent of the V1 rockets. Written by: Angus Calder - Produced by: Philip Whitehead
[EPISODE 17] INSIDE THE REICH - GERMANY 1940-44:
SThe Summer of 1940 saw Germany in a buoyant mood. Her armies had conquered Western Europe. The attack on Russia, was the prelude to a year of disastrous reversals, with 250,000 killed at Stalingrad alone. Hitler was depressed but ordered a fight to the finish. Even the weak were pressed into service. The food shortages worsened. Allied bombing was relentless. Hitler travelled only by night, to avoid seeing the carnage. He was losing touch with reality. He survived an assassination plot, with few confidants; the end was in sight. Written by Neal Ascherson - Produced by: Philip Whitehead
[EPISODE 18] MORNING:
In the early morning of June 5th 1944, the largest amphibian invasion force ever gathered reached the shores of Normandy. Americans, British and Canadians attacked on five separate beaches and the foothold in Hitler's 'Fortress Europe' was made. Cherbourg, Caen and Falaise fell to the Allies, as did Paris. The Nazi occupiers were left to the mercies of the French. 'Morning' includes interview with Lord Louis Mountbatten, Kay Summersby (Eisenhower's driver) and Allied soldiers and sailors involved in the landings. Written by John Williams - Produced & Directed by: John Pett
[EPISODE 19] OCCUPATION:
Neutral Holland was attacked in 1940, capitulation led to four years of Nazi occupation. The Dutch were stunned, but adjusted quickly under the occupiers 'no animosity' policy, despite the fact that it excluded Dutch Jews. Of 140,000 deported, only 36,000 survived. Mounting sympathy for the Jews led to increasingly open defiance, harsher measures from the occupiers, and growing resistance from Dutch workers pressed into war production. In 1944 southern Holland was liberated, in the occupied remainder a rail strike to cut off Nazi supplies brought reprisals that claimed 16,000 lives. Written by: Charles Bloomberg - Produced by: Michael Darlow
[EPISODE 20] PINCERS:
With the August 1944 liberation of Paris the war seemed over. The Russians and the Allies advanced on Germany. But there was conflict between Eisenhower who favoured a broad front, and Montgomery who urged for a narrow raid at Arnhem. The British plan was adopted and failed disastrously. Russia regained land lost to 'Barbarossa'. The Poles rose against the Germans but, with no outside aid, were crushed in 10 weeks, with 200,000 killed. The last German offensive was made through the Ardennes and failed. Written & Produced by: Peter Batty
[EPISODE 21] GENOCIDE:
Heinrich Himmler, was charged with realising Hitler's vision of an 'Aryan' Germany. German youth was to be the instrument of what the Nazi propaganda films described as the survival of the fittest and the fittest youths were enrolled in the idealistic SS. The Jewish problem gradually became not 'What shall we do with them?' but 'How shall we exterminate them?'. Eight Auschwitz survivors and Himmler's adjutant are among those interviewed in this harrowing account of the most chilling and inhuman episode of the Second World War. Written by Charles Bloomberg - Produced by: Martin Smith
[EPISODE 22] NEMESIS:
As the net closed on Berlin, Hitler retired to the bunker where, betrayed by Himmler and Goering, he destroyed himself, but not before marrying his faithful Eva Braun. As allied prisoners of war were freed by their comrades, thousands of German soldiers were captured. Many were shown, often forcibly, the true horror of the death camps. The programme contains interviews with one of the first men to see Hitler's body, with the secretary who took his last will and political testimony, with allied soldiers, and with German civilians. Written by: Stuart Hood - Produced by: Martin Smith
[EPISODE 23] JAPAN 1941-45:
Many Japanese were stunned when war was declared, but early victories in Hong Kong, Malaya and Singapore quickly turn fear to exultation. Japanese boys were taught the martial code of the Samurai, ferocious and devoid of pity for enemy or self. But by 1942 Japan was fighting for survival. By 1944 Japan was fighting shortages of food, metal and fuel. Scarcity of manpower condemned Japanese women to unfamiliar labouring. Continued allied bombing killed a further 250,000 and rendered 8 million homeless. But worse was to come. Written by: Courtney Browne - Produced by Hugh Raggett
[EPISODE 24] PACIFIC - THE ISLAND TO ISLAND WAR:
TThe Allied Pacific offensive was commanded by two rivals: General MacArthur in the South West and Admiral Nimitz in the Central Pacific. Their two-pronged strategy seemed simple. But the Japanese were ferocious animals in defence, and severe casualties were the keynotes of the island battles. On Pelelieu, four in ten Americans were killed or wounded. On Iwo Jima only 200 of the 21,000 Japanese survived. Only when their continued efforts brought them to within reach of the Japanese civilian population, did the Americans begin to see the 'animals' as human beings. Written by: David Wheeler - Produced by: John Pett
[EPISODE 25] THE BOMB:
On 6 August 1945 the American B-29 bomber nicknamed Enola Gay dropped the world's first uranium bomb on Hiroshima. Four days later a second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. The official reason was that it would save millions of Allied lives. But many believed it was Truman's way of beating Russia to the punch to increase his bargaining power. Offered the right terms, might the Japanese have surrendered without risking the horrors of the bomb? We shall never know. However, many Japanese were shocked by the decision to surrender. Written & Produced by: David Elstein
[EPISODE 26] RECKONING:
The end of war in central Europe was a time without pity. Russian and American intervention ensured that no European nation could win. The United Nations was born 'to build for a better world'. America planned to mould Japan into a modern industrial nation. Nobody wanted Germany to be strong again - yet no nation would be responsible for keeping her a ruin. Russia, America, Britain and France agreed to share the supervision of Germany's recovery, amid mutual mistrust. Britain has survived but the nation was nearly bankrupt. Written & Produced by: Jerome Kuehl
[EPISODE 27] REMEMBER:
For millions, the Second World War remained the significant experience of their lives. For millions more, it meant the end of all memories. Twenty million Russians dead. Five million Germans. Six million Jews. Over three million Japanese, American, British and Commonwealth dead. The bereaved will never forget the moment they heard the news. Many still remember, each year, at reunions, at the Cenotaph, at gravesides. Yet many also remember less sombre things - moments of joy, laughter and comradeship. But the important thing is to remember. Written & Produced by: Jeremy Isaacs
[DVD EXTRAS]
SECRETARY TO HITLER:
Traudl Junge went to Berlin to be a ballet dancer. But she also knew shorthand and typing. When a friend told her about a vacancy in Hitler's chancellery she applied. Her resemblance to Hitler's mistress Eva Braun landed her a job as one of his private secretaries. She saw him at close quarters, shared his public life, and witnessed its end. Here she talks at greater length about Hitler: what he was like as a man; how he reacted to adversity; and how he met his death.
WHO WON WORLD WAR II?:
The world of 1945 was a simple place. Germany and Japan had been utterly defeated. The USA, Britain and the USSR stood united in victory. Today it all seems different. Germany is strong, Britain weak. Russia and America are deadly rivals. And Japan dominates the peace of lands she could not conquer in war. Did nearly 60 million men, women and children die in vain?
WARRIOR:
Some men are terrified of combat, others revel in it. But no man is ever quite the same after it. This is a film about killing in time of war: preparing for it; participating in it; reflecting about it afterwards. The voices in the film are those of fighting men. The stories are their own. After thirty years they reveal their true feelings about the war. Archive film shows the war as it was, not as it was doctored for the newsreels. The experiences are universal.
HITLER'S GERMANY:
Germany's worst problems in the 20s and 30s were inflation, unemployment and political violence. These films show how Hitler solved them, and at what cost. The story is told through the eyes and words of people like socialist Werner Pusch, who joined the SS hoping to subvert the Nazi movement from within; businessman Hans Kerhl, who saw Nazism as Germany's only hope; journalist Ben Witter, who reported the Hamburg bombings and lost relatives when his own city was raided.
Part 1 : 1933 - 1936 Part 2 : 1937 - 1941 Part 3 : 1941 - 1945
THE TWO DEATHS OF ADOLF HITLER:
At first the Russians claimed he was not dead, but a prisoner of the British. Then they said they had autopsied his corpse. Hitler's German followers claimed he had shot himself in the head - an honourable death for a defeated leader. The Russians say he took poison - a coward's death. The manner of Hitler's death remains a mystery. This film seeks to clarify the many conflicting reports.
THE FINAL SOLUTION-AUSCHWITZ:
Television's most comprehensive attempt yet to examine the theory and practice of genocide, as embodied in the Nazi doctrine.
Part 1: Examines the growth of Nazi racial policies.
Part 2: Shows how, from 1939 to 1941, a conventional war became a systematic drive to murder civilians.
Part 3: Describes the death factories; the extermination camps; how they rubber-stamped millions to death.
Part 4: Tries to explain why the killing machine continued to function unhindered.
kansst du dir auch bei edonky ziehen, wenn die dvds zu teuer sind
p.s. vergesst guido knopp, n24 und dersgleichen
hier ist die episoden liste:
[EPISODE 1] THE MAKING OF WORLD AT WAR (This is only available on DVD)
The story behind the creation of one of the World's most respected documentaries. Jeremy Isaacs talks about the production process and the aims of the project. This programme provides an insight into the challenges of summarising years of history, tragedy and personal struggle in a comprehensive, coherent and non-partial manner. With over three million feet of archive footage alone the task was almost impossible.
[EPSIODE 2] A NEW GERMANY - 1933 - 39:
The story of the Second World War began in the early 1930s, showing how Adolf Hitler came to power with the whole-hearted support of millions of ordinary Germans. Newsreels of the day and home movies taken by Hitler's mistress Eva Braun, show the Fuhrer as he must have appeared to his people. Historical hindsight and the knowledge of what some of the Nazi hierarchy were already doing under the cover of clever propaganda gives these shots a very sinister aspect. Written by: Neal Ascherson - Directed by : Hugh Raggett
[EPISODE 3] DISTANT WAR - 1939-40:
For months after Chamberlain's declaration of war, Britain's only casualties were on the streets during the blackout. Churchill was elected as Prime Minister. Britain wasn't prepared for war or taking the possibility seriously. As First Lord of the Admiralty, Churchill displays his grasp of propaganda by making the most of the Graf Spee sinking after the battle of the River Plate. The reality was that the ship was scuttled and its crew were marched through London in celebration. Meanwhile, in Europe, the Nazi terror continued, and Britain waited with trepidation. Written by: Laurence Thompson - Produced and Directed by: David Elstein
[EPISODE 4] FRANCE FALLS - MAY-JUNE 1940:
The German's defeat of the French was total. France had the largest pre-war army, but were humiliated due to a continued reliance on First World War techniques and equipment. Enormous emphasis was placed on the heavily fortified Maginot Line, a chain of fortresses built to contain the fiercest attacks and supplied by an underground communications system. Incredibly, the Line does not extend to the Channel in the west, so the Germans simply skirt the Line, leading to a defeat of the French in six weeks. Written & Produced by: Peter Batty
[EPISODE 5] ALONE IN BRITAIN - MAY 1940-JUNE 1941:
With France fallen, the USA as yet uninvolved, and the Russian pact with Hitler still in force, Britain was alone. Although many were saved by the Dunkirk 'victory', British morale was never lower. The Battle of Britain began and the Luftwaffe redirected its bombing from the airfields to the cities. Churchill's 'bulldog' attitude - 'we shall never surrender' - was thrown back at him by some London Eastenders who suffered the worst. Then Hitler turned against Russia and the pressure, thankfully, was relieved. Written by : Laurence Thompson Produced & Directed by : David Elstein
[EPISODE 6] BARBAROSSA - JUNE-DECEMBER 1941:
Hitler turns his troops towards Russia when the pact between Germany and the Soviet Union outlived its usefulness. The early stages of the invasion consisted of overwhelming German victories. The defenders were happy to trade space for time. But the German High Command delayed and the advance was held a few miles from Moscow when the mud and the fierce cold of the Russian winter took hold. The ill-equipped Germans were routed - thousands were killed, wounded or captured. Hitler's ambitious plans crumbled. Written & Produced by: Peter Batty
[EPISODE 7] BANZAI - JAPAN STRIKES:
In the East, the Japanese had been at war on the Chinese mainland since 1931. December 7th 1941 saw the attack on Pearl Harbour and the start of an all-conquering sweep throughout South East Asia, culminating in the taking of Singapore. 'Banzai' includes interviews with several Japanese involved in this part of the war - Emperor Hirohito's Lord Provy Seal, the planner and the lead pilot of the Pearl Harbour attack speaks, as well as several US seamen. Written & Produced by: Peter Batty
[EPISODE 8] ON OUR WAY - AMERICA ENTERS THE WAR:
Neutral America was divided as war started, but after France fell, support for the British grew. She sold - then gave - guns, ammunition and food to the British, without entering the fighting arena. After Pearl Harbour, America found herself at war with Japan - but no with Germany. The conflicts in the Pacific and in Europe were two separate wars. President Roosevelt was committed to fight against Hitler - congress was not. Hitler's declaration of war solved Roosevelt's quandary, a year later an American armada steamed towards Europe. Written & Produced by : Peter Batty
[EPISODE 9] DESERT - THE WAR IN NORTH AFRICA:
The war in North Africa took nearly three years to resolve, fought and refought over the same 600 miles of desert between Alexandria and Benghazi. At last, Montgomery's celebrated 'Desert Rats' beat Rommel's Afrika Korps at the famous battle of El Alamein. The surviving combatants tell the story of the other war against sandstorms, heat, flies, thirst and dysentery, and Field Marshal Lord Harding, General Sir Richard O'Connor, Sir Francis de Guingand and Siegfried Westphal are among those describing the top-level decision-making of the North Africa campaign. Written & Produced by: Peter Batty
[EPISODE 10] STALINGRAD:
The encirclement and defeat of the German Army at Stalingrad held more importance than the horrifying number of men lost. For the first time, the Germans were beaten in the field and the legend of German mastery on land was dispelled. For Hitler, Stalingrad became a magnet, an obsession, with half a million men fighting for six months around it and inside it. So important was Stalingrad to both sides that neither dared give it up. Hitler was finally beaten by the very people he once termed as 'sub-human'. Written by: Jerome Kuehl - Directed by : Hugh Raggett
[EPISODE 11] WOLFPACK:
German attempts to starve Britain by attacking ships bringing supplies from North America were very nearly successful. The Allied ships, despite convoy techniques, navy escorts and elementary underwater detection devices, were very vulnerable. Doenitz developed the technique of co-ordinating his submarine forces into 'wolf-packs' to attack ships from above and below the surface - but liaison was not a British strong point; co-operation between the Navy and the Air Force in the field, as well as at sea, was very bad. Written by: J P W Mallalieu - Produced by : Ted Childs
[EPISODE 12] REDSTAR - THE SOVIET UNION 1941-43:
In Leningrad, a city of three million inhabitants, 200,000 people were killed by German shells and further 630,000 died from cold or starvation. Russia's terrible total of war losses was 20,000,000 military and civilian. Yet Leningrad survived, and the Russian armies went on to rout the Germans. Three months before the attack on Russia began, Hitler told his generals that this was to be a war of destruction - there could be no question of soldierly comradeship with the Russians; they were, to his mind, 'sub-humans'. Written by: Neal Ascherson - Produced & Directed
[EPISODE 13] WHIRLWIND - BOMBING GERMANY - SEPTEMBER 1939-APRIL 1944:
The arrival of Arthur 'Bomber' Harris to take charge of Bomber Command heralded a new attitude. He was in favour of revenge on a massive scale. He accepted the target statistics and started a system of night 'area' bombing as an alternative to individual target raids which previously had proved disastrous for the British. In July 1943 at Hamburg, at least 30,000 people died, many of them killed by the heat which, in places, reached an estimated 1000ºC. German civilian morale, for the first time, was shattered. Written by: Charles Douglas Home - Produced by: Ted Childs
[EPISODE 14] TOUGH OLD GUT:
Churchill persuaded the Americans to join the Allies on the road to Rome and in November 1942, eleven months after Pearl Harbour, they met the Wehrmacht for the first time. In Tunisia they suffered their worst defeat but the Afrika Korps' eventual defeat gave a major boost to British Mediterranean strategy. Two months later, Allied troops landed in Sicily, Mussolini was deposed and the victory revived the British. Progress northwards through Italy was difficult and hampered by the onset of the Italian winter, however, gradually the Allied position improved. Written by David Wheeler - Produced by : Ben Shepherd
[EPISODE 15] IT'S A LOVELY DAY TOMORROW:
The jungle and monsoon conditions, for five months of every year, made the lot of the Burma Army a nightmare, whilst the Japanese were able to thrive. The Burma Army in 1942 was weakened by alien conditions, hampered by poor communications, terrorised by Japanese air superiority. It suffered the longest retreat in British Military history, with many casualties and thousands captured by the Japanese. Mountbatten's arrival as commander of S.E. Asia in 1943 was a turning point where the 'supermen' myth was exploded by the first Japanese defeat at Arrakan. Written by: John Williams - Produced and Directed by John Pett
[EPISODE 16] HOME FIRES:
Following defeat in the Battle of Britain, the Luftwaffe focus was no longer on London but on more provincial cities. U-boat operations in the Atlantic meant that food supplies were not coming through. Women were conscripted for the first time and called to work in the fields and factories. Rationing brought black marketers in its wake. The strain of the war effort resulted in strikes and the American presence caused social problems. Rejoicing at their departure for Normandy was quickly eclipsed by the advent of the V1 rockets. Written by: Angus Calder - Produced by: Philip Whitehead
[EPISODE 17] INSIDE THE REICH - GERMANY 1940-44:
SThe Summer of 1940 saw Germany in a buoyant mood. Her armies had conquered Western Europe. The attack on Russia, was the prelude to a year of disastrous reversals, with 250,000 killed at Stalingrad alone. Hitler was depressed but ordered a fight to the finish. Even the weak were pressed into service. The food shortages worsened. Allied bombing was relentless. Hitler travelled only by night, to avoid seeing the carnage. He was losing touch with reality. He survived an assassination plot, with few confidants; the end was in sight. Written by Neal Ascherson - Produced by: Philip Whitehead
[EPISODE 18] MORNING:
In the early morning of June 5th 1944, the largest amphibian invasion force ever gathered reached the shores of Normandy. Americans, British and Canadians attacked on five separate beaches and the foothold in Hitler's 'Fortress Europe' was made. Cherbourg, Caen and Falaise fell to the Allies, as did Paris. The Nazi occupiers were left to the mercies of the French. 'Morning' includes interview with Lord Louis Mountbatten, Kay Summersby (Eisenhower's driver) and Allied soldiers and sailors involved in the landings. Written by John Williams - Produced & Directed by: John Pett
[EPISODE 19] OCCUPATION:
Neutral Holland was attacked in 1940, capitulation led to four years of Nazi occupation. The Dutch were stunned, but adjusted quickly under the occupiers 'no animosity' policy, despite the fact that it excluded Dutch Jews. Of 140,000 deported, only 36,000 survived. Mounting sympathy for the Jews led to increasingly open defiance, harsher measures from the occupiers, and growing resistance from Dutch workers pressed into war production. In 1944 southern Holland was liberated, in the occupied remainder a rail strike to cut off Nazi supplies brought reprisals that claimed 16,000 lives. Written by: Charles Bloomberg - Produced by: Michael Darlow
[EPISODE 20] PINCERS:
With the August 1944 liberation of Paris the war seemed over. The Russians and the Allies advanced on Germany. But there was conflict between Eisenhower who favoured a broad front, and Montgomery who urged for a narrow raid at Arnhem. The British plan was adopted and failed disastrously. Russia regained land lost to 'Barbarossa'. The Poles rose against the Germans but, with no outside aid, were crushed in 10 weeks, with 200,000 killed. The last German offensive was made through the Ardennes and failed. Written & Produced by: Peter Batty
[EPISODE 21] GENOCIDE:
Heinrich Himmler, was charged with realising Hitler's vision of an 'Aryan' Germany. German youth was to be the instrument of what the Nazi propaganda films described as the survival of the fittest and the fittest youths were enrolled in the idealistic SS. The Jewish problem gradually became not 'What shall we do with them?' but 'How shall we exterminate them?'. Eight Auschwitz survivors and Himmler's adjutant are among those interviewed in this harrowing account of the most chilling and inhuman episode of the Second World War. Written by Charles Bloomberg - Produced by: Martin Smith
[EPISODE 22] NEMESIS:
As the net closed on Berlin, Hitler retired to the bunker where, betrayed by Himmler and Goering, he destroyed himself, but not before marrying his faithful Eva Braun. As allied prisoners of war were freed by their comrades, thousands of German soldiers were captured. Many were shown, often forcibly, the true horror of the death camps. The programme contains interviews with one of the first men to see Hitler's body, with the secretary who took his last will and political testimony, with allied soldiers, and with German civilians. Written by: Stuart Hood - Produced by: Martin Smith
[EPISODE 23] JAPAN 1941-45:
Many Japanese were stunned when war was declared, but early victories in Hong Kong, Malaya and Singapore quickly turn fear to exultation. Japanese boys were taught the martial code of the Samurai, ferocious and devoid of pity for enemy or self. But by 1942 Japan was fighting for survival. By 1944 Japan was fighting shortages of food, metal and fuel. Scarcity of manpower condemned Japanese women to unfamiliar labouring. Continued allied bombing killed a further 250,000 and rendered 8 million homeless. But worse was to come. Written by: Courtney Browne - Produced by Hugh Raggett
[EPISODE 24] PACIFIC - THE ISLAND TO ISLAND WAR:
TThe Allied Pacific offensive was commanded by two rivals: General MacArthur in the South West and Admiral Nimitz in the Central Pacific. Their two-pronged strategy seemed simple. But the Japanese were ferocious animals in defence, and severe casualties were the keynotes of the island battles. On Pelelieu, four in ten Americans were killed or wounded. On Iwo Jima only 200 of the 21,000 Japanese survived. Only when their continued efforts brought them to within reach of the Japanese civilian population, did the Americans begin to see the 'animals' as human beings. Written by: David Wheeler - Produced by: John Pett
[EPISODE 25] THE BOMB:
On 6 August 1945 the American B-29 bomber nicknamed Enola Gay dropped the world's first uranium bomb on Hiroshima. Four days later a second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. The official reason was that it would save millions of Allied lives. But many believed it was Truman's way of beating Russia to the punch to increase his bargaining power. Offered the right terms, might the Japanese have surrendered without risking the horrors of the bomb? We shall never know. However, many Japanese were shocked by the decision to surrender. Written & Produced by: David Elstein
[EPISODE 26] RECKONING:
The end of war in central Europe was a time without pity. Russian and American intervention ensured that no European nation could win. The United Nations was born 'to build for a better world'. America planned to mould Japan into a modern industrial nation. Nobody wanted Germany to be strong again - yet no nation would be responsible for keeping her a ruin. Russia, America, Britain and France agreed to share the supervision of Germany's recovery, amid mutual mistrust. Britain has survived but the nation was nearly bankrupt. Written & Produced by: Jerome Kuehl
[EPISODE 27] REMEMBER:
For millions, the Second World War remained the significant experience of their lives. For millions more, it meant the end of all memories. Twenty million Russians dead. Five million Germans. Six million Jews. Over three million Japanese, American, British and Commonwealth dead. The bereaved will never forget the moment they heard the news. Many still remember, each year, at reunions, at the Cenotaph, at gravesides. Yet many also remember less sombre things - moments of joy, laughter and comradeship. But the important thing is to remember. Written & Produced by: Jeremy Isaacs
[DVD EXTRAS]
SECRETARY TO HITLER:
Traudl Junge went to Berlin to be a ballet dancer. But she also knew shorthand and typing. When a friend told her about a vacancy in Hitler's chancellery she applied. Her resemblance to Hitler's mistress Eva Braun landed her a job as one of his private secretaries. She saw him at close quarters, shared his public life, and witnessed its end. Here she talks at greater length about Hitler: what he was like as a man; how he reacted to adversity; and how he met his death.
WHO WON WORLD WAR II?:
The world of 1945 was a simple place. Germany and Japan had been utterly defeated. The USA, Britain and the USSR stood united in victory. Today it all seems different. Germany is strong, Britain weak. Russia and America are deadly rivals. And Japan dominates the peace of lands she could not conquer in war. Did nearly 60 million men, women and children die in vain?
WARRIOR:
Some men are terrified of combat, others revel in it. But no man is ever quite the same after it. This is a film about killing in time of war: preparing for it; participating in it; reflecting about it afterwards. The voices in the film are those of fighting men. The stories are their own. After thirty years they reveal their true feelings about the war. Archive film shows the war as it was, not as it was doctored for the newsreels. The experiences are universal.
HITLER'S GERMANY:
Germany's worst problems in the 20s and 30s were inflation, unemployment and political violence. These films show how Hitler solved them, and at what cost. The story is told through the eyes and words of people like socialist Werner Pusch, who joined the SS hoping to subvert the Nazi movement from within; businessman Hans Kerhl, who saw Nazism as Germany's only hope; journalist Ben Witter, who reported the Hamburg bombings and lost relatives when his own city was raided.
Part 1 : 1933 - 1936 Part 2 : 1937 - 1941 Part 3 : 1941 - 1945
THE TWO DEATHS OF ADOLF HITLER:
At first the Russians claimed he was not dead, but a prisoner of the British. Then they said they had autopsied his corpse. Hitler's German followers claimed he had shot himself in the head - an honourable death for a defeated leader. The Russians say he took poison - a coward's death. The manner of Hitler's death remains a mystery. This film seeks to clarify the many conflicting reports.
THE FINAL SOLUTION-AUSCHWITZ:
Television's most comprehensive attempt yet to examine the theory and practice of genocide, as embodied in the Nazi doctrine.
Part 1: Examines the growth of Nazi racial policies.
Part 2: Shows how, from 1939 to 1941, a conventional war became a systematic drive to murder civilians.
Part 3: Describes the death factories; the extermination camps; how they rubber-stamped millions to death.
Part 4: Tries to explain why the killing machine continued to function unhindered.
kansst du dir auch bei edonky ziehen, wenn die dvds zu teuer sind
p.s. vergesst guido knopp, n24 und dersgleichen
GooZe
Captain Special
Nunja - die Dokumentationen von Guido Knopp sind zwar Bildgewaltig ...
Inhaltlich sind sie jedoch für die Tonne.
Guido Knopp wird nicht umsonst von der Fachwelt (ernsthafte in- und ausländische Historische Forschung) oftmals als "Populär- und Pseudo-Historiker" kritisiert - er sieht nur das was er sehen und populär ausschlachten kann. Wenn man die Sendungen sieht bemerkt ein man auch einen schleichenden, anklagenden Unterton. Von Fehlern mal abgesehen. (Gut, nichts ist perfekt!)
Seine Dokumentationen sind weit von einer wertfreien Berichterstattung (Was eine Dokumentation sein sollte - sie soll dokumentieren, nicht aber Position beziehen. Die Meinung soll sich der Betrachter ja anhand der dokumentierten Geschehnisse bilden) entfernt.
Ein einfaches Beispiel: Der Begriff "Nazi" ist die Negativform des neutral bezeichnenden Begriffes "Nationalsozialist". Sicherlich hat sich die Menschenmenge, die sich unter diesem Begriff gesammelt hat, nicht mit Ruhm bekleckert (äußerst milde ausgedrückt..) - aber darum geht es nicht. Ein wissentschaftliches Werk (zu denen Dokumentationen gehören - sie sind keine Unterhaltungssendungen sondern Meinungs- und Wissenbildende Informationsträger) muß auf Neutralität achten um die Glaubwürdigkeit nicht zu verlieren. Statt aber korrekt den kompletten Begriff zu verwende spricht Knopp nur von "Nazis". Bequemlichkeit da Abkürzung? Eher nicht - er transportiert damit seine Voreingenommenheit in seine Dokus.
Kein ernsthafter Historiker kann sich Voreingenommenheit leisten ... er würde nicht mehr ernstgenommen werden.
Knopp hat damit keine Probleme - er nutzt unsere von je her auf diesen Kurs eingefahrene Medienlandschaft.
Auch die Art und Weise, wie zB. manche Dinge beschrieben werden (gerade in Berichten über die Waffen-SS) taugt zur Meinungsmache - nicht aber zur objektiven Information.
Dies sollte man wissen wenn man sich die Sendungen dieses Herren anschaut.
Leider gibt es IMHO keine Dokumentation, die die Fülle und Bildqualität (Er hat hervorrqagende Quellen - es ist aber auch klar warum. Es gibt auch im Ausland viele Leute, die seine Art und Weise der "Berichterstattung" angenehm finden und ihren Teil dazutun, das er die Menschen weiterhin so "informiert") der Knoppschen Sendungen erreicht und dabei objektiv bleibt.
Das Gegenteil der Knoppschen Sendungen sind einige unsägliche Pseudodokus aus Holland, die im "Kameraden-" und "Patriotensaft" quasi dahergeschwommen kommen ... einfach vergessen ...
Es ist zwar wichtig, die Sendungen von Knopp zu sehen - man soll sich aber möglichst breitbandig informieren. Es gibt einige sehr gute Bücher ..
Und bitte: nicht alles glauben was man sieht und gleichzeitig erklärt bekommt. Das Texte zu Bildern vorsätzlich falsch sein können wissen wir nicht erst seit der ersten Wehrmachtsausstellung ..
GooZe
GooZe
Captain Special
@anschobi
Na, das ist mal ein Tip.
Danke für die Info - ich hatte von dieser Serie gehört und hatte bis jetzt nichts näheres herausgefunden.
Vielen Dank,
GooZe
Na, das ist mal ein Tip.
Danke für die Info - ich hatte von dieser Serie gehört und hatte bis jetzt nichts näheres herausgefunden.
Vielen Dank,
GooZe
GooZe
Captain Special
Original geschrieben von Ball
Juhu, endlich mal einer der meine Meinung teilt
Willkommen im Club
Dieser Meinung sind sehr viele Leute, die ich kenne. Vom ambitionierten Weltkriegsinteressierten bis zu einem (durchaus bekannten) Geschichtsprofessor.
Der wiederum kennt einige weniger bekannte "Historiker", die gerne mal zu Statements in "Dokumentationen" aller Art eingeladen werden - und dann im sinngemäß das sagen oder bestätigen sollen, was ihnen vorgegeben wird. Tja, die Kohle stimmt und man wird (etwas) bekannter.
Ich rede jetzt aber nicht von den Knopp-Dokus - der hat seine Hausmannschaft ...
Du siehst - Geschichte wird ständig geschrieben ...
GooZe
(PS: Absolut geniale Vor- und Endstufe, die Du hast!!)
ghostadmin
Grand Admiral Special
Sound of War oder "Wenn Helden sterben" ist nur ein B Movie, hat einige interessante Stellen drin aber ist trotzdem nur Mittelklasse
Um was es mir da genau geht kann ich gar nicht genau sagen
Wichtig ist aber das die Schauspieler überzeugend wirken und die Szenen realitätsgenau sind. Ich meine nicht das sie mit der Wirklichkeit völlig übereinstimmen müssen aber wenn ein Feldmarschal mitten im Gefecht aufrecht steht und nichts abbekommt dann wirkt das unecht. Genauso sind viele Filme zu sehr geschönt, man sieht nicht wie die Menschen leiden müssen.Brücke von Arnheim ist da eine der wenigen Ausnahmen der nichts schönt und fast eine Dokumentation sein könnte
Ansonsten U571 ist grottig, "Das Boot" einer der besten Filme den ich kenne, Stalag17 sehr gut von den Schauspielern ebenso wie Gesprengte Ketten (fast das selbe Thema), Stalingrad vom Ansatz ganz gut, Band of Brothers und Private Ryan sehr unterhaltsam aber zu heldenhaft und patriotisch. Schindlers Liste auch sehr gut aber über ein Thema das mich nicht so interessiert
zapbranigan
Admiral Special
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Wenns um einen guten eindruck ders timmung geht finde ich "jacob der lügner", sowohl das buch als auch der film, sehr gut. schaut euch den mal an
Der mensch von "soweit die füße tragen" kommt übrigens ganz aus meiner nähe.
Der mensch von "soweit die füße tragen" kommt übrigens ganz aus meiner nähe.
GooZe
Captain Special
Hmpff ..
Das erinnert mich doch sehr stark an "Wir waren Helden" - einen der nicht so guten Mel Gibson Filme ..
Die Wirklichkeit allerdings will glaube ich auch keiner sehen - b.z.w. wäre sie vielfach härter als der ungeschnittenste Director`s Cut von "Die Passion Christi". So etwas könnte man gar nicht zeigen und vor allem technisch nicht rüberbringen (Gerüche!!!).
Mir klingeln immer noch die Erlebnisse meines Großvaters und meines Vaters (mit 18 Jahren war er z.B. unter anderem zur "Bandenbekämpfung" in Jugoslawien ..) in den Ohren ..
Ist schon besser so ..
GooZe
GooZe
Captain Special
Meinst Du einen der Darsteller oder Clemens Forell selber?
edit: (Wobei Clemens Forell ja nur das Pseudonym für den Mann ist)
GooZe
Zuletzt bearbeitet:
ghostadmin
Grand Admiral Special
deswegen wollte "A Bridge too far" auch niemand sehen, vor allem die Amerikaner
Der Film ist einfach zu nahe an Realität, nichts geschönt
Bei der DVD gibt es eine Filmdoku und da meinte aber ein General (oder Captain?) während des Drehens das ein General nie so schnell und gebückt laufen würde weil die Leute dann denken würde er hätte Angst
Und weil in dem Film echte Personen nachgespielt wurden die zum Teil noch lebten war dieser besagte General auch nicht einverstanden das ein bestimmter Satz durch einen Schauspieler gesagt würde der ihn spielte. Weil er sich nicht mit fremden Federn schmücken wollte.
Der Film ist einfach zu nahe an Realität, nichts geschönt
Bei der DVD gibt es eine Filmdoku und da meinte aber ein General (oder Captain?) während des Drehens das ein General nie so schnell und gebückt laufen würde weil die Leute dann denken würde er hätte Angst
Und weil in dem Film echte Personen nachgespielt wurden die zum Teil noch lebten war dieser besagte General auch nicht einverstanden das ein bestimmter Satz durch einen Schauspieler gesagt würde der ihn spielte. Weil er sich nicht mit fremden Federn schmücken wollte.
zapbranigan
Admiral Special
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Original geschrieben von GooZe
Meinst Du einen der Darsteller oder Clemens Forell selber?
edit: (Wobei Clemens Forell ja nur das Pseudonym für den Mann ist)
GooZe
natürlich die person selber, der schauspieler selber wär ja langweilig.
Kriegsgeschichten kenn ich auch genug von meinem opa, der war in der hj undd ann in russland. Und danach 5 jahre gefangenschaft.
GooZe
Captain Special
Stimmt, ich glaube auch das er nahe dran war *in erinnerung kram*
Aber immer noch kilometerweit von der Wirklichkeit entfernt ..
Trotzdem, jetzt hast Du mich neugierig gemacht - ich werde mal sehen das ich mir die DVD beschaffe ..
Bei der DVD gibt es eine Filmdoku und da meinte aber ein General (oder Captain?) während des Drehens das ein General nie so schnell und gebückt laufen würde weil die Leute dann denken würde er hätte Angst
Und weil in dem Film echte Personen nachgespielt wurden die zum Teil noch lebten war dieser besagte General auch nicht einverstanden das ein bestimmter Satz durch einen Schauspieler gesagt würde der ihn spielte. Weil er sich nicht mit fremden Federn schmücken wollte.
Mittlerweile (vielleicht auch schon 1977
) gibt es bei des US-Army eine hochoffizielle Filmstelle, die "beratend" alle amerikanischen Filmproduktionen unterstützt, die das Militär um Ausrüstung (sowohl aktuelle wie auch historische) gebeten haben.Klartext: Ist der Film den Typen vom Militär genehm, bekommt der Produzent das volle Programm. ( Jetzt ist auch klar warum Top Gun so eine unerträgliche Patriotenkacke ist - einen Flugzeugträger gibbet sonst nirgendwo ..
)Deswegen haben viele amerikanische Produktionen die unsägliche Botschaft des patriotischen Heldentums ..
Am Beispiel von "Black Hawk Down" wurde es in einer Doku (glaube auf Discovery) klargemacht:
Hätten die nicht ganze Passagen und Konversationen umgeschrieben währe am Ende maximal "Christopher 6 down" herausgekommen ..
Die unerträgliche Botschaft vieler Ami-Filme geht oft also gar nicht auf die Intention des Filmemachers zurück - es sind Kompromisse mit dieser Militäreinrichtung.
Schau` Dir mal "Platoon" im Unterschied zu "Wir waren Helden" an - also unabhängige Produktion gegen US-Armywood Produktion ...
Seitdem hat Mel Gibson bei mir endgültig verschissen ...
Es soll im Osten vermehrt mit Filmproduktionen losgehen - da gibt es Typen die recht interessante Ideen zum Thema Kriegsfilm haben. Da bin ich drauf gespannt ..
Alles, was in den letzten Jahren aus Armywood kam ist nur aufgrund der üppigen Ausstattung und der Special Effects sehenswert - sonst sind diese Film eher Schrott.
GooZe
GooZe
Captain Special
Dann weißt Du die derzeitigen "Kriegsfilme" auch richtig einzuschätzen .. Popcornkino.
Gruß,
GooZe
ghostadmin
Grand Admiral Special
Deswegen mag ich auch alte Filme, da gab es noch keine Effekte und die Schauspieler mussten überzeugen.
Ich stecke da nicht so drin in der "Operation Market Garden" aber angeblich soll der Regisseur nur Dinge verfilmt haben die ihm doppelt bestätigt wurden. Ein paar kleine Details was die Personen betreffen waren anders aber nur Kleinigkeiten. Unter anderem wurden auch Leute interviewed die damals Live dabei wahren und das ganze wirklich rührend erzählen, da kann man schon leicht sentimental werden. Und es ist nach wie vor strittig ob die Generäle vor der Invasion wußten das dort Panzer stationiert waren.
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001MQHRM/ref=pd_sims_dp__4/302-4551001-4129608
Ich stecke da nicht so drin in der "Operation Market Garden" aber angeblich soll der Regisseur nur Dinge verfilmt haben die ihm doppelt bestätigt wurden. Ein paar kleine Details was die Personen betreffen waren anders aber nur Kleinigkeiten. Unter anderem wurden auch Leute interviewed die damals Live dabei wahren und das ganze wirklich rührend erzählen, da kann man schon leicht sentimental werden. Und es ist nach wie vor strittig ob die Generäle vor der Invasion wußten das dort Panzer stationiert waren.
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001MQHRM/ref=pd_sims_dp__4/302-4551001-4129608
Original geschrieben von GooZe
Willkommen im Club
Dieser Meinung sind sehr viele Leute, die ich kenne. Vom ambitionierten Weltkriegsinteressierten bis zu einem (durchaus bekannten) Geschichtsprofessor.
Der wiederum kennt einige weniger bekannte "Historiker", die gerne mal zu Statements in "Dokumentationen" aller Art eingeladen werden - und dann im sinngemäß das sagen oder bestätigen sollen, was ihnen vorgegeben wird. Tja, die Kohle stimmt und man wird (etwas) bekannter.
Ich rede jetzt aber nicht von den Knopp-Dokus - der hat seine Hausmannschaft ...
Du siehst - Geschichte wird ständig geschrieben ...
GooZe
(PS: Absolut geniale Vor- und Endstufe, die Du hast!!)
In meiner Umgebung habt nur fast keiner genügend "Fachwissen", damit ihnen diese Fehler und Unstimmigkeiten auffallen würden
![:]](https://www.planet3dnow.de/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif "Augen rollen (sarkastisch) :]")
Der mahnende Unterton ist ja wie immer auch subjektiv. Mancher ist einfach der Meinung über dieses Thema dürfe/könne man keine absolut wertfreie Dokumentation machen.
Gruß Ball
PS Thx
GooZe
Captain Special
Original geschrieben von Ball
In meiner Umgebung habt nur fast keiner genügend "Fachwissen", damit ihnen diese Fehler und Unstimmigkeiten auffallen würden
Der mahnende Unterton ist ja wie immer auch subjektiv. Mancher ist einfach der Meinung über dieses Thema dürfe/könne man keine absolut wertfreie Dokumentation machen.
Gruß Ball
PS Thx
Ja, das liegt wohl daran das seit dem Kriege dieses Fachwissen auch nicht gefördert wird. Eine eher kurze Zusammenfassung über die (schreckliche) Zeit der (teuflischen) "Nazis" - reduziert auf die Untaten des dritten Reiches - soll bis heute noch ausreichen, um in Schulen das Thema "Nationalsozialismus" abzuhandeln, um sich dann mit Akribie auf die Entstehung des "tollen" Amerika und des britischen Commonwealth zu stürzen ...
So war es bei mir in den frühen 70er Jahren in der Schule - so ist es heute in der Schule meines Sohnes ..
Das damit durchaus auch eine Mystifizierung ausgelöst wurde und in gewissen Kreisen natürlich genutzt wurde/wird beschert uns extreme Gruppen, die wir überhaupt nicht gebrauchen können.
Beide extremen Gruppierungen von rechts und links nutzen Uninformiertheit, um ihre bedenklichen Ansichten radikal zu schüren und durchzusetzen.
Deswegen bin ich u.a. auch der Meinung, das eine schonunglose, aber objektive Aufarbeitung des Themas in der Vergangenheit uns einiges an derzeitigen Dingen erspart hätte.
GooZe
zapbranigan
Admiral Special
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klar kann ich das, z.B. bei "enemy at the gates" hab ich nach ner halben stunde angeschaltet, die "dummen" deutschen und die "genialen" russen haben mir gereicht.
Wenn man berichte von nem zeitzeugen hat kann man halt viele dinge besser und objektiver einschätzen kann denke ich.
GooZe
Captain Special
Die Essenz vieler "wissentschaftlicher" "historischer" "Untersuchungen" besagt, das der britische Nachrichtendienst die Luftbilder und Informationen des holländischen Widerstands ignoriert hat und diese Informationen nicht weitergegeben wurden.
Es klingt für mich so, als hätten sich die Historiker darauf geeinigt..
Es wurde aber von einigen Wissenschaftlern aufgebröselt - da kamen interessante Details zu Tage:
Am 3.09 hat SS-General Bittrich (Obergruppenführer II. SS Panzerkorps) von Generalfeldmarschall Model (Oberbefehlshaber Heeresgruppe B) den Befehl bekommen, die Reste seiner 9. Panzerdivision (Hohenstaufen) und 10. Panzerdivision (Frundsberg) aus der Front herauszuziehen, um sie aufzufrischen. Diese Kampfverbände waren seit der Landung der Alliierten in nahezu ununterbrochenem Einsatz. Er wählte Arnheim. Die Absetzbewegung des Panzerkorps begann am 5/6.09.
Soweit die offizielle Geschichtsschreibung.
Die für mich interessanten Dinge sind einerseits der Zeitraum des vorhandenseins der deutschen Kampfverbände in Arnheim ( vom 5.09 bis zum 17.09 sind es immerhin 12 Tage ) - muß man doch wissen das die Luftaufklärung der alliierten damals täglich erfolgte! Gerade im Zielgebiet von "Market Garden". So ist für mich nicht zu erklären, warum Montgomery es nicht wissen sollte - denn: Der alliierte Nachrichtendienst wertete zwar Informationen aus - gab sie aber immer und in jedem Fall mit Bildern an die Stäbe der betreffenden alliierten Führung weiter.
Andererseits sollte man auch wissen, das Eisenhower (Oberbefehlshaber der Alliierten Streitkräfte) das Potential dieses Vorhabens gar nicht erkannte! Es mag natürlich auch mit seiner Affinität Montgomery gegenüber zu tun gehabt haben ..
Jedenfalls stellte er Montgomery gar nicht die Mittel zur Verfügung, die ein solches Vorhaben eigentlich benötigt hätte. Ob er letztendlich vielleicht Montgomery Vorhaben vielleicht sogar durch Rückstufung unterminiert hat, kann man vermuten. Beweisen allerdings nicht ...
Wenn man sich mit "Market Garden" beschäftigen möchte, muß man auf jeden Fall die Beziehung Eisenhower/Montgomery berücksichtigen und erkunden.
Interessant ist auch auf jeden Fall, das die amerikanische Geschichtsschreibung für das Mißlingen von "Market Garden" ausschließlich Montgomery verantwortlich macht. Wobei der Oberbefehl und damit die Unterstützung/Ausrüstung und Bereitstellung von Kräften bei den Amerikanern lagen .. Ein Schelm wer böses denkt ...
Vielen Dank für den Link - da hätte ich wohl auch drauf kommen können ..
GooZe
(Öhmm, hatte ich Dir signalisiert, das ich bei diesem Thema gerne viel schreibe ??
)GooZe
Captain Special
Das witzigste: Mein Opa hat mir schon in den 70ern erzählt, das er in Stalingrad seine Mütze nie aufhatte - das erste was er bei seiner Ankunft (September 42) von seinen Offizierskollegen gesagt bekommen hat, war einen Stahlhelm zu tragen - der Scharfschützen wegen. Da waren die Deutschen noch nicht mal im Stadtkern ... Also ist es völliger Blödsinn, das in diesem Film deutsche Offiiere aufgrund ihrer Mützen in der HKL identifiziert und erschossen worden sind ..
So ist eben die Sicht der Dinge im Ausland - böser, dummer Deutscher gegen strahlende Helden.
Schade nur, das man es in Jahrzehnten geschafft hat, das viele Deutsche ebenso denken.
Dumme, böse, heldenhafte, feige, kluge usw gibt und gab es in jeder Armee der Zeitgeschichte.
Nur - der Sieger schreibt die Geschichte! Armywood verfilmt sie dann ...
GooZe
Ja, dass stimmt schon, aber wieso denkt man so? Weil die meisten Leute, ja nur den Mann kennen der Mit "H" beginnt ....... Die wissen nicht richtig was, da passiert ist. Wissen wahrscheinlich einfach das es Massenmord an den Juden gab. Da denken sie gleich das alle Deutschen in der "SS" waren, und somit alles Massenmörder sind.... darauf basieren ja die Filme häufig -----> nur böse Deutsche ( oder generell Achsenmächte) und gute Alliierte ( obwohl Stalin ja selbst hunderttausende Menschen in seinen Arbeitslagern ind sibirien getötet hat.....), jedoch gab es oft grosse Abneigungen zwischen Wehrmacht und SS.
Zudem hatten die Deutschen ja gar keine Wahl. Ausreisen konnte man später ja nicht mehr!
Sorry das ich hier "SS" verwende. Mann kanns nicht gut umschreiben
Zudem hatten die Deutschen ja gar keine Wahl. Ausreisen konnte man später ja nicht mehr!
Sorry das ich hier "SS" verwende. Mann kanns nicht gut umschreiben
Also wenn ich mich an die ersten Szenen in Enemy at the Gates zurückerinnere wirft das auch kein gutes Licht auf die SU. Da sind Szenen wo Russen in einer hoffnungslosen Situation gegen Deutsche geschickt werden, und die Russen die fliehen werden von den eigenen Kommmandanten erschossen.
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